Steve:

I am probably not taking very much Vit D, I am using a Maxasorb D3 cream, I use a full pump (1,000 IU per dose). I did buy a supplement that has 5,000 IU of Vit D 3 it is not from fish oil it is from Lanolin. What do you think about getting Vit D from Lanolin, but I havn't taken any of it as yet. I thought I was getting some Aura migraines from fish oil, so I had stopped it last fall, but I was outside a lot then. Not sure why I went into permanent AF last Nov. could have been from too much thyroid hormone and also not getting any Vit D, don't know. But, I will give your protocol a try, the cream isn't causing me any problems, I could put it on twice a day.

Liz

Ghost,

Not guaranteeing this applies in your case, of course, but I do recall lots of incidents like the one you relate, from my experiments when I was sorting out the Ca/VitD relationship in my case. I recall that quite a few occurred in the days after doing Ca-intake reductions, and I would at first despair for the few seconds they lasted, thinking "Oh no, this is not working and I've gone into afib (ie a full, multi-hour session) again".

But, with experience, I came to view them more along the lines of some sort of "clean out" of whatever backlog of built-up "overhang" of the underlying afib biochemical mechanism that I had accumulated since my last major episode -- and as a process which was occurring as my system was now correcting itself to the new (improved) Ca/VitD status quo.

In that view, they would be related to what I wrote on my website about the obvious cyclicity of my afib attacks, ie about the ectopic-free periods followed by gradual ectopics buildup and then afib attack : "(this seemed to imply some sort of gradually accumulating imbalance), something which the body was constantly striving to rectify, but with decreasing efficiency at older ages. Whenever the hypothesised imbalance could not be adequately brought back into line, and it therefore reached a critical threshold, some sort of “safety valve” seemed to be released via an atrial fibrillation attack."

But in the case of such minor (few-second) bursts like we are now discussing, they would actually be virtually positive versions of this, with the system apparently performing its "clean out" mechanism very quickly and innocuously at these now-reduced Ca-intakes and raised serum VitD level. In that regard, it is notable that the incident occurred ~40(?) hours after your deliberate high Ca dose, and after your subsequent return to your preceding and current reduced Ca-intake.

Anyway, as I say, that is an optimistic "spin" on it, and no guarantees, but just providing all info I can.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2020 05:34AM by SteveCarr.

Liz,

1,000iu per day will virtually not raise your serum VitD at all (unless there is some completely different and much more efficient absorbance and retention mechanism via the skin versus the gut -- about which I am completely unaware, and which is quite likely never to have even been researched by anyone, but which I suppose is always theoretically possible in the absence of evidence to the contrary. And on the other hand, absorbance/retention via the skin could be less than via the gut!).

Even 5,000iu per day orally, every day, takes months (about 3 months) to increase the serum level to the area around 64ng/ml that is delivered by extensive sun exposure, and to plateau wherever it is going to plateau around that level exactly.

As I recall, the vast majority of supplement VitD is made from lanolin. There are no known problems with that. The one I and all my family take certainly is.

If I was in your position and I wanted to try my protocol (and I'm not necessarily recommending that for people in persistent afib, especially if they have an unknown risk for afib-related complications which the medical profession might suggest they deal with promptly), then I would need to seriously get my VitD up. What's more, if there were any risks from delaying medical procedures that might get me out of persistent afib in such a case, and also since maintaining a low Ca-intake diet can be hard to stick to for some people, it would seem likely that any trial of my protocol would be best done in the shortest possible time. That would unavoidably mean getting my serum VitD up very quickly. That would unavoidably mean using a "loading dose" method like the one fully laid out in the 18th post in this Topic thread (a "ten dot point" method provided after Dean asked for it), or using the approx 160,000iu (in total) over several days as I wrote in the last post (adjusted up or down according to bodyweight compared to 70Kg). If I went ahead and did such a loading dose, I would make absolutely sure that my Ca-intake was highly restrained and that I got the necessary VitD blood tests to ensure I knew correctly what was going on.

Just to have one more go at putting the VitD dosing into perspective (all from memory, so please excuse if minor inaccuracies) :

A large-area body exposure (eg in bathers, or shirt-off) in midsummer delivers a dose of around 20,000iu after (from memory) about 20 mins of exposure. After that it basically plateaus for the day -- can't get any more that day.

So 1,000iu is roughly equivalent to a single minute of shirt-off in summer!!! (ie, can't go outside for the rest of the day, every day, if one wants a dose of only 1000iu/day!)

This also puts in perspective, again, how much VitD all of one's millions of ancestors had in them! Remember, one's number of ancestors doubles with every generation back, so ~1,024 ancestors in one's tenth generation back (or ~2,000 ancestors in total, to that far back), and ~one million ancestors in one's 20th generation back (or ~ 2 million in total, to that far back) [I think that maths is about right!]. Anyway, all of us have untold millions of ancestors, and virtually every one of them was getting around with outdoor body exposures that caused them to be saturated with VitD (~64ng/ml, 160nmol/L) until the industrial revolution (say 1800), and ~50% of them were even as late as roughly 1900, which is about when agricultural workers dropped below 50% of the adult population in most advanced countries.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2020 01:33AM by SteveCarr.

Steve,

Trying to understand the logic behind the "clean out" of the system you describe. You indicated that after an afib even, there is a period of quiet heart behavior (which I have also noticed). Just what, exactly, is this cleaning out of buildup or whatever you describe? I'm trying to understand the technical aspect of it.

Thanks as always.

Ghost,

Well, of course, no-one really knows what this cyclical process is. Safe to say, if anyone did, then the real, underlying cause of Lone AF would be conclusively known.

There are many on this Forum who talk about Ca overload into cells, and that does seem plausible in some way (and then the fibrillation may represent some sort of Ca-release "safety valve" before cellular damage occurs?). On my own website, I list two references for scientific proof of cellular Ca-overload (then Ca-release) induced ventricular fibrillation. But I'm not personally aware of any similarly detailed proof re atrial fibrillation. [Someone on this site may know of actual research -- not just an assertion in a book or by someone else?]

But, FWIW (not very much until someone proves it), and in case it is any encouragement to continue your experiments long term, I like to comfort (delude?) myself as follows.

Vastly more common (in total) than to die of afib is to die of various other cardiovascular diseases, non-afib-related strokes, and even dementias, in the majority of which calcification of the vasculature (blood vessels) is a major player. There is also an absolute epidemic of such calcification, which rapidly rockets in its degree and in its spread across the entire Western population as people age, so that in the elderly virtually everyone has some degree of deleterious vascular calcification -- and that is heavily involved in virtually every type of blood-vessel-related disease, from all the obvious heart-related ones, to peripheral artery disease, to stroke, and even to the majority of dementia cases. (And numerous other things too.)

Well I now like to think of it (optimistically -- but optimism is important, right?) like this : perhaps the ones who get ectopics and/or afib are (or can be if they can get rid of them or reduce them by natural means) the lucky ones! In their case they have a clear signal that they are getting too much Ca into (the cells of?) their vasculature and, if they can find the right natural protocol to eliminate or reduce their ectopics/afib, perhaps they are then preventing the calcification process too! In this case, the unlucky ones are those who are genetically without the cellular Ca-dumping process which we detect as Lone afib, because they just continuously stack in more Ca, heading for all of the problems above, or at least lack a distinct signal that anything is going wrong!

So, yes, perhaps bizarrely, that is exactly how I have come to think of my ectopics and my long hand-to-hand struggle with afib! I simply cannot believe that if I have found a relatively simple dietary protocol that rids me of such a pernicious beast and which fits in with everything we know about human diets and lifestyles for millions of years, that it is not ticking a host of other (unseen) boxes too.

I know all that may seem "easy for you to say when you've got rid of it", but I hope it is an incentive for others to try. Yes, I literally have come to think of my multi-year combat with afib as a "lucky" opportunity, and that it was an opportunity which has almost certainly put me on the path to other long term health rewards! That is something which I never could have conceived of thinking a few years ago, when I was mired in combat with multi-hour afib every eight days at its peak. It would now take masses of high-quality scientific research to the contrary to dissuade me from this view. As I've written before, if I get to 90 and need to drop my Ca intake to 200mg/day (no signs yet) to avoid the afib/ectopics (while maintaining serum VitD around 64ng/ml, 160nmol/L), and there are no other strong contrary indications, then that is what I plan to do. The benefits so far have just been far too great and far too wonderful to abandon this path, but in addition, as I say, I see every prospect that there are other large hidden benefits accruing too.

In your case, the very fact that you already seem to be noting some differences in your afib/ectopics presentation, even if it hasn't disappeared entirely yet, strongly suggests that there is a strong Ca/VitD connection in your case too. These were very much the sort of phenomena or clues that I followed to my destination. If I were in your shoes, I would think that was definitely a potentially rich seam that I wanted to mine to the full, and so I would continue with the same low Ca intake and gradually increasing my serum VitD to see if these short bursts decrease, and/or at what serum VitD level they minimised. Only when I had discovered at what combination of serum VitD and Ca-intake my afib/ectopics were minimised, would I then go on to play with other things if the afib/ectopics hadn't gone completely. Some of those things could include magnesium (up or down), cranberries, more protein, optimised omega3 intake (0.6g/day?), optimised cholesterol, potassium, taurine (I never could obtain any benefit from direct dosing of either of those last two, but I did see distinct improvement of serum potassium numbers once my VitD levels and Ca-intake were optimised).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2020 01:11AM by SteveCarr.

Thanks Steve. As you know, I was at 117 nmol/L at my last D test just over a week ago (that from 73nmol/L previously and before 10 days of 4 x 5000iu/day of D3 - I am 6' 4" and 93kg). Since upping Vit D3 I have noticed as follows. Before commencing D3 I would get hundreds of ectopics per day and a few second run or 2 of ectopics per week. Where I am now I'm getting less single ectopics but have been getting 1 or 2 short (few second) runs of ectopics per day. This would seem to fit with what you are talking about. Will be doing another d3 test soon (i.e. after another 10 days of 4 x 5000iu/day) and will let you know the results.

mwcf

If I was in your position Mike, I would make very sure that I kept my Ca intake very low as my serum (blood) VitD levels approached these solar-saturation type levels, until I could see what the upshot was. I know that you (individually) already know that, but it is worth repeating often, for anyone else who may read this, because it is true that higher serum VitD increases Ca absorption and reduces Ca excretion, so increases the % retention of whatever Ca is consumed. I would also have the attitude that if the higher serum VitD and low Ca-intake combination worked to eliminate my ectopics (as you are seeking to do), then I could always inch my Ca intake upwards afterwards to find out where problems re-emerged and to decide what VitD/Ca-intake I wanted to maintain in the long run. [Again, I I know that you (individually) already know all that.]

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
Induction of calcification through hypervitaminosis with vitamin D has been demonstrated and well characterized in multiple animal models, including mice, rats, goats.

Quote
hwkmn05
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
Induction of calcification through hypervitaminosis with vitamin D has been demonstrated and well characterized in multiple animal models, including mice, rats, goats.

Interesting article. I'd be curious to hear the reactions of those who are more versed in the science.

I notice that the authors don't discuss the role of vitamin K at all, which I have understood to be important here.

Has anybody on here who had long term high D3 levels had a CAC score test done?

I believe that GeorgeN, who maintains extremely high serum VitD3 levels (150ng/ml I think he recently said, which would require ongoing daily doses around 20,000iu), has done so and has an excellent CAC score.

But, regardless, even if one person with a high serum VitD had a worse CAC score, it would tell you very little. As we know, bad CAC scores are very common in adults, despite the fact that maybe 40% of the US population is officially VitD deficient and that 95% of the remainder are only a bit over that absolute minimum acceptable serum VitD3 level! In contrast, bad CAC scores (and osteoporosis) are much scarcer amongst Third World peasants who have high sun exposure and very low Ca intakes by Western standards.

The review article linked by hwkmn05 makes it clear that both low levels of serum VitD, and hypervitaminosisD -- which is a serum VitD concentration above 80ng/ml (200 nmol/L) or above 100ng/ml (250 nmol/L) -- are suspects re calcification. Indeed, the three animal studies cited in the article, as evidence of high VitD causing calcification, utilised daily doses of 7.5mg/kg, 500,000iu/kg and 100,000iu/kg, which are equivalent to daily doses of 21 MILLION, 35 MILLION and 7 MILLION iu per day for a 70kg individual, and more for anyone heavier!!!!! Of course these amounts will lead to hypervitaminosis and calcification. I haven't seen any good evidence that serum VitD3 within the normal reference range, ie up to the natural solar-saturation plateau of ~64ng/ml (160nmol/L), leads to calcification, and I think that the epidemiological evidence from Western vs Third World countries is that, if combined with more historically normal Ca-intake levels, the reverse is true.

Myself, I haven't had a CAC score done, partly to avoid the radiation dose and partly because, again, it wouldn't tell me much. By which I mean : if I did turn out to have a CAC score higher than I wish, I would then think it was very likely due to all my many earlier (lifelong) years of high milk consumption and lowish VitD levels, rather than my last few years of reduced Ca-intake and solar-saturation type levels of serum VitD. I am now very aerobically fit for a 66yo, and although that is not conclusive re CAC score, I prefer to interpret it that there probably isn't much wrong with my vasculature, CAC-wise, compared to the great majority of Westerners.

But, most importantly, I have got rid of the dangerous and horrible afib, and virtually eliminated aura-migraines (also a substantial risk factor for strokes and dementia in old age, and also horrible), as well as noted a variety of other health improvements which likely are at least partially due to my much better VitD (and Ca) status. So I just find it impossible to believe that I'm on some sort of overall worse health course. Indeed, having experienced what my family members and I have experienced re afib and migraines, and since these serum VitD levels and Ca-intakes are entirely in tune with what nearly all of our ancestors enjoyed, if I found I had a raised CAC score I would now turn to this approach as my best bet of reversing it. Obviously I have no proof of that, but there is no "official" dietary method proven to reverse vascular calcification, so personally I would think that the various lines of evidence above gave me my best shot.

The circa 5,000iu/day of D3 needed to maintain the natural solar-available serum levels (~64ng/ml, 160nmol/L) of virtually all our ancestors are very, very different from the levels mentioned in the article, and are, logically at least, very likely to be the absolute optimum for our health.

"By which I mean : if I did turn out to have a CAC score higher than I wish, I would then think it was very likely due to all my many earlier (lifelong) years of high milk consumption and lowish VitD levels, rather than my last few years of reduced Ca-intake and solar-saturation type levels of serum VitD."

Steve, Thanks for pointing out the obvious I missed, sensationalized amounts in a test in order to arrive at a negative result. Steve isnt the only one who is 66 and drank more than his share of cow juice. Im close to his age and white bread and milk was a staple in our house for years. However, a catheter scope 10 years ago unrelated to afib, showed very little calcification they labeled "some rust, runs well". I stopped my milk consumption in my twenties while upping my animal fat intake. Myself and those with Afib who are taking Vit D and limiting Calcium intake, are most likely on a Magnesium regimen which I believe is vital for D absorption.

Quote
hwkmn05
Myself and those with Afib who are taking Vit D and limiting Calcium intake, are most likely on a Magnesium regimen which I believe is vital for D absorption.

Are you on a magnesium regime Steve??

Quote
SteveCarr
The circa 5,000iu/day of D3 needed to maintain the natural solar-available serum levels (~64ng/ml, 160nmol/L) of virtually all our ancestors are very, very different from the levels mentioned in the article, and are, logically at least, very likely to be the absolute optimum for our health.

Thanks for pointing out the ridiculously high levels in that paper. I take 5,000iu/day and have been doing it for about 1 year as well as regular whole body sun exposure (when possible in Melbourne )
Nevertheless, it would be interesting to know of the relationship and intake of MK7 and/or K2 in that trial?

My calcium score was 37 at age 68 (2 years ago). Sort of curious to have a check in another few years to see if it went up or down.

hwkmn05 : Do you mind if I ask how much VitD you take; how far you limit your Ca intake; how long you have been doing that; and what has been the upshot for your afib as best you can tell? Might as well throw in the details on the Mg supplement if you are willing. Cheers.

mwcf : No, Mike. As I have posted before, Mg always proved a bad influence re afib/ectopics for me. Well, there was one brief period where I thought it was beneficial, but further experimentation reversed that opinion again. Only a few weeks ago, out of interest, I tried it again, with just a 100mg/day supplement -- introducing it twice for a few days each time and then removing it twice. [Although only 100mg/day, it should be noted that I am constantly at 64ng/ml (160nmol/L) serum VitD; that having a serum VitD like that significantly increases absorption and retention of Mg as well as of Ca; that my Ca-intake is low; that the 100mg of Mg is ~60% increase on my usual Mg intake; and so that, overall, the 100mg of Mg would undoubtedly have been quite a "whack" upwards of Mg actually retained into my system]. After only a day or two, in both trials, I could feel ectopics, whereas for years I now normally have none.

Joe : You are doing the Melbourne climate a disservice, Joe. Well, the Melbourne summer climate, at any rate. Indeed, depending on how often you manage to do the whole body exposure, if you are taking 5,000iu/day of VitD3 you may well go well over 64ng/ml (160nmol/L) in summer, so one hopes you've had that checked, say late Feb, sometime. And, regardless of checking late-summer serum VitD, if you are routinely taking 5,000iu VitD3/day, one hopes that you are heavily restraining Ca-intake -- both because serum VitD at those levels plus high Ca-intake seems clearly to worsen afib, and because the two combined may well be straying toward the calcification risk, whereas it is very unlikely that the same serum level of VitD allied with restrained Ca-intake has the same risk. May I ask how management of your afib goes, if you enlighten us re any of those other aspects just mentioned?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2020 06:44AM by SteveCarr.

Thanks for clarifying Steve - I vaguely recalled you mentioning as such but was too lazy to read back through all your posts to verify!
Cheers,
Mike

Steve, after an initial test of 48ng/mL for Vit D, I decided to start close to 3 months ago with 20,000 iu for 12 days. After that with a test of 58ng, I dropped it to 10,000 iu per day for 10 days and I am now at 5-7,000 iu in emulsifier form, 1,000iu per drop. Have not retested.
Calcium ranges from 200-500mg daily. I used to consume close to 1000 mg.

The upside was absolutely zero Ectopic beats after weekly bouts since 2019 after day 15. Until in day 67, a serious bout with Sleep apnea. Woke to a HR of 48-52, normally 65. Bad memory/massive headache. 1-2 per minute and was told to take Metoprolol in low dose 25mg, which was a big mistake, keeping my rate lower, increasing my Ectopics (3/4 per minute) only dulling the feeling. Then it hit me. It wasnt a high rate that brought on the Ectopics, so I starting to exercise with moderate to vigorous cardio, upping Magnesium to 240mg 5 x a day, with no digestion issue. They stopped in 2 days, 2 weeks ago and have not returned. After waiting 6 months for a sleep study, I decided to just go out and get a machine. After a few minor adjustments in a few nights, I feel like I have a new lease on life with quality rest. No more napping after 15 years of them.

Since 2014, my last cardioversion, My regimen has been:
Magnesium Glycinate min. 240mg/max 1200mg. Vit C 4000mg daily, B12, DHEA, Vit ADK off and on. (The times I was off Vit D, brought on afib every Feb/March for the last 5 years, so far none this year.) Cortisol control HPA Adapt Stress Resistance, 2 daily after Saliva test revealed higher levels at night/lower daytime. I have used 300mg Flecainide and 50mg Toprolol to convert in 1-6 hours, 1 or 2 times per year.
Recently started Lugos Iodine 12.5 mg per day and have taken for 1 year, "The One" , [www.quicksilverscientific.com] teaspoon daily, and LSF Biocidin. Those are more related to my battle with Lyme Disease I acquired in 2017, but do have the same benefits for AF with COq10, Resversatrol, goldenseal , ashwaganda, Phospholipids etc.The Lyme is under control but rears its head now and again in one area of my body, which ever is being stressed.

Side note which I have not pursued a discussion about, I consulted my ND doctor before starting the higher D. She has administered as much as 150,000 iu Vit D injection form to her patients. Not sure what she was treating or the results, but she was all in on Steve's story and supported me thru it. I will see her in a few weeks again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2020 02:21PM by hwkmn05.

Yes, the climate thing was a bit mischievous and stems more from other Australians and the 4 Melbourne seasons in one day - not relevant here so shouldn't have written it I'm actually quite happy with the climate here, maybe not so much during winter.

Unfortunately, i have not got your discipline, Steve. Yes, i must get my D3 levels tested. It is my aim to restrict Ca intake but don't worry about it to the extent of calculating it.
I take about 300mg Mg, 1000mg Taurine 535mg Ascorbic acid, 50 mg Zinc Oxide, 62.1mg Selenomethionine/day (Caruso's Super Mg Powder) in drinking water throughout the day. I take this out of convenience because i haven't found any powder without Ca and the forms of Mg this one offers.
Also take Resveratrol, CoQ10, Krill 2g as well as the 5,000iu D3, 40g of Natto, 6 Walnuts and 50mg Flec.1x/day

Did stop the Flec last December because of not AF for many months but had an Af episode about 2 days later (114p/m) so i took 50 mg Atenolol and 50mg Flec which brought my HR down to 70-80 with some pauses so i took the same about 7 hrs later and all was good again. have taken the 50mg /day since (except forgetting a few times to take it).
My BMI is about 20 and i think i'm relatively fit for 70y/o. Do a little aerobic (10 min/day on the bike) and some body weight exercises. Not much because i find exercising very boring. Don't mind doing some physical work - re pointing ridge tiles on our house roof right now.
My TSH is a little high @ around 7 but have no symptoms of hypothyrodism. The endocrinologist doesn't think it's got anything to do with the supplements or anything else she can think of

Hwkmn05 :

I have to say that sounds like a good test of my protocol and excellent results so far if I am understanding you correctly. From what you say, it sounds as though you had weekly bouts of ectopics (or was it weekly bouts of afib?) for some months. Then you raised your serum VitD3 to 58ng/ml by supplementing VitD3 20,000iu/day for 12 days, and reduced your calcium intake to 200-500mg/day (from ~1000mg/day). Following the 58ng/ml blood test, you then supplemented with 10,000iu/day and continued the reduced Ca-intake. From three days after switching to the 10,000iu/day dose ("day 15") until day 67 (so 7.5 weeks) you had absolutely zero ectopic beats. Have I got all that correct? What is particularly interesting about that is that on day 15, with the additional 3 days of 10,000iu/day dosing, you would certainly have increased from 58ng/ml to VERY close to (either side of) the 64ng/ml serum VitD3 level which I am advocating as optimum (unless evidence to the contrary emerges and as long as Ca-intake is simultaneously much reduced to the levels you have done).

At day 67 you suffered ectopics at 1 or 2 per min, worsened to 3 or 4/min by metoprolol. You got rid of those either by more vigorous exercise or by upping your Mg intake or both. They disappeared after 2 days and have been gone for 2 weeks. This last section again raises the question of whether (or maybe how many of) those whose afib and ectopics are responsive to serum VitD3 ~64ng/ml (160nmol/L), and reduced Ca-intake, also need additional Mg. It may be that for some it is deleterious (eg me and others) and for others beneficial. It would obviously be interesting to see what happened if you now removed the additional Mg intake, but understandably none of us like to get off a winning horse.

You also say: "The times I was off Vit D, brought on afib every Feb/March for the last 5 years, so far none this year". Well, of course, this is exactly what I have written about looking like classic lack of VitD at end of winter (I'm assuming you are in the US), and now rectification of that this year by getting serum VitD ~64ng/ml (160nmol/L). Others have also reported seasonal patterns (which can, however, be the reverse of your pattern, depending on their Ca intake), and all who experience any seasonal afib or ectopics effects should be particularly interested in my protocol.

Good to hear that your doc is supportive, and her relaxed use of 150,000iu single doses confirms what I have previously written about 20,000iu/day loading doses being zero worry at all as long as one gets a VitD3 blood test to end the 20,000iu/day dosing and then switches to a maintenance dose closer to 5,000iu/day to maintain serum VitD3 around 64ng/ml (160nmol/L). I am mentioning that again because I know that some readers here seem very panicked by the mention of 20,000iu/day doses -- which seems like a big number but is really just very, very small units! Hopefully you, Hwkmn05, will also be checking your serum VitD to see that your maintenance dose is adjusted correctly.

Straying well off subject : you mention intake of 12.5mg (milligrams) of Lugol's iodine. Whether this is 12.5mg of iodine content, or 12.5mg of the solution, either way it is a colossal amount of iodine compared to the officially required amount of 150mcg (micrograms) per day. I know other people take this stuff, and some swear by it, but traditionally even doses over about 600mcg/day (from memory) are believed from experiments to begin to wreak havoc with the thyroid. So I never understand how these amounts can be got away with. But I don't really know the stuff, so there is probably something basic I'm missing, and I don't want to provoke the Topic thread to go off course, so let's not get into a full iodine discussion!

Well, my trial seems to have been a failure. I've maintained strict calcium limits (no more than 300mg a day) and supplemented with Vit D and K as per the conversation earlier.

This morning at 4AM, woke up to use the bathroom and as soon as I stood up - afib. Been in it for 4 hours now.

Back to the drawing board. I tried.

Steve, that is an accurate summary. My Vit D level high or low, and sleep apnea are not mutually exclusive. Vit D cannot regulate or restore my depleted oxygen levels without the sleep treatment. I am satisfied that D and CPAP serve a useful function.
I am on board 100% and grateful for your research and experimenting with this protocol. To extend this to others shows your willingness to prove your theory through double blind testing in our virtual world.
After 10 years of seeking a cure outside of the conventional medicine org, this is most enlightening to me and answered a few questions about my condition. One, the months most episodes occurred. Mar/May/Aug. March and May are obvious. August puzzled me, but thinking about my outside activity, I was always covered and hiding from the sun. I dont believe it was dehydration alone, but that may have contributed also.
Yes, I as you will shelve the Iodine talk for this thread. I am not well informed and have only anecdotal stories to verify those dosages. To a point however, we never pay much respect to that fictitious RDA level with any of our supplements. Good Day.

Ghost,

Hoping you convert to NSR soon.

Do you know your current level of Vit D? I.e. have you got it up anywhere near 165 nmol/L yet??

Last test was 31 but that was two months ago and have been taking 3000-5000 in a day since

Ghost, to follow Steve’s protocol you need to get from 31 to 66 and 3-5000iu/day won’t do any more than maintain you at 31 - please refer to Steve’s earlier posts above. Hoping you’re back in NSR by now.

Ghost :

Sorry to hear about your afib attack, but mwcf is right -- it is very unlikely that you have tried the protocol yet. Vital to the whole approach is to have one's serum VitD3 around the 64ng/ml (160nmol/L) level at the same time as having the reduced Ca intake!

Three to five thousand iu of VitD3/day (let's call it 4,000iu/day) will eventually plateau at a level significantly above the 31ng/ml you started at, but 4,000iu/day would not ever reach a serum level of 64ng/ml, except maybe in someone weighing about 50Kg, and even then, not from only two months of consumption. You definitely need a serum VitD test to tell you where you are at. When you get that test result at, I'm guessing, say 45 or 50 ng/ml, you have two choices if you wish to test the protocol -- you can continue with 5,000iu/day and restricted Ca and observe whether the interval between attacks then stretches out, getting tested for serum VitD3 again about two months later to see what your eventual personal plateau level may be (and if you are over 70Kg it will probably still be under 64ng/ml), or you can take a few days of, say, 20,000iu/day to get to 64ng/ml more rapidly, and then switch to 5,000iu/day while maintaining restricted Ca intake. If you are impatient to know whether the protocol is working (I always was!), the latter is the better approach.

Can I ask how long it has been since your previous attack, and how that compared to the intervals between prior attacks? From info that you posted previously it seems that it has been two months since your last attack, during which you posted that you were having far fewer ectopic beats, compared to one month between the prior two attacks and more ectopic beats. So that is probably already progress, despite not yet being at the optimum serum VitD level. So I definitely wouldn't give up yet. You definitely need to get to that solar-saturation level around 64ng/ml, just like hwkmn05 has, with apparent success re afib (a few posts above). Believe me, I gave a thorough testing to Ca-intakes and serum VitD levels like you have been on, and it took me numerous years to establish that the optimum is 64ng/ml (160nmol/L) and low Ca-intake. These are the levels which worked for three people in my family, hwkmn05 above, and for "T" who we are waiting to post his info in the other Topic thread. For the latter two, success came only as they got their serum VitD's very close to that 64ng/ml level, and that was my experience also. From what he recently reported, it sounds as though GeorgeN has also had success with his son-in-law at these serum VitD levels, and of course George himself uses an even higher serum VitD level (and does other stuff).

So you have a way to go with the VitD yet, and the way to find out how far is to get another VitD test.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2020 10:39AM by SteveCarr.

Steve Carr: " It would obviously be interesting to see what happened if you now removed the additional Mg intake, but understandably none of us like to get off a winning horse. "
So for some strange reason, after years on magnesium, it seemed to be bothering me in different areas than my heart. I decided to take a break from it for a few days, cutting down from 240-480mg to 120mg and then none after 5 days. This comes in combination with a new CPAP protocol. One very noticeable difference is the new absence of Nocturia, which was a max of 2 wake ups, usually one, but now none or very close to my normal wake up time. The heart has been smooth and uneventful, however too soon to notice if that is an improvement, but not yet an issue with the absence of Mg.

Just an update on the off chance Steve is still following this thread and it may be helpful to others.

I've not had an afib attack since March and here we are a few days from August. I've continued to maintain a strong 7000iu of vit D since my last post (where I upped the dosage slightly). All ectopics during the day are essentially eliminated, and again, no afib attack at all (knock on wood). Calcium has been reduced greatly. The last Vit D reading I had was 47 three weeks ago. Back in March I was having one attack a month or so including all the ectopics every day. My heart has been quiet. At night, sometimes when I wake up in the middle of the night,.and I turn over to the other side (I sleep on my side), I will sometimes get one PVC or skipped beat every 10 or so that gets my anxiety up and then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy of skipped beats until I am able to fall back to sleep again. During the day, almost nothing. A very quiet heart.

I run every other day a few miles and get my HR up to a sustained 155 (I am almost 50 y/o) for a good 20 min and there are no hiccups and its recovery back to the 80s is rather quick once exercise is complete. My at rest HR is around 55.

I'll update again around the end of the year but it would appear that a Vit D regimen has done wonders. Thank you, Steve.